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Pseudolonewolf`s Avatar $$$ Fri 10th Jul 2009 2:00pm

Category: Business

Due to a comment on the last article, the comments on that one are straying into the territory which I might as well cover in a separate article here.
That is, money making from Flash.

You see, Flash games are not very profitable, even though they likely take far more effort and skill than most jobs that 'Normal People' have for modest wages. This doesn't seem fair at all, but oh well.
Someone linked to [this], which is one of many 'how to make money from Flash games' articles that I've seen about the web...
It seems that the Flash game market is still in its relative infancy (I hope) and money-making potential is just increasing as the years go by... but most money is from advertising, and it seems that that article makes it clear that it doesn't have to be that way.
I'm one of the ones who always thought that charging money for any aspect of Flash games would drive people away, or make them hate me, but really, why should I go to all the effort of making these games in the first place then be HATED when actually asking people to give me something in return for my hard work? (Probably because so many people love to TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, but when GIVING is suggested they respond with hostility or something... Fair, myes.)

But anyway, I very likely will charge for *aspects* of my games in future. Here are a few ideas, mainly for the sake of brainstorming...

~

#1 - MARDEK BONUS CHAPTERS

Since basically the beginning of the MARDEK series, I've been planning to do 'Bonus Chapters' following the backstories of various characters, like the Governance de Magi, Social Fox, Enki, perhaps the World's Saviours, other characters who haven't been introduced yet, etc.
They'd be for sale ONLY and wouldn't be widely released. You'd only be able to play them on this site and you'd need an account to do so (to prevent people from merely downloading the game then hosting it on their site and giving it to everyone for free)...

These would be really rather difficult to make though, probably... I mean, look how long MARDEK 3 has taken!
But then again, I don't know how quickly I'd be work on something like that if the engine was all done but the story was fresh rather than something I'd been working on in various forms for like two years...

I don't know if I'll do this. I WANT to, and I'd try, but I don't know if I'd do them alongside the 'official chapters' or AFTER all those chapters are done... It seems like people might not care about them as much if they play them after the end of the main game, but they'd add a lot to the ongoing story's appeal if played alongside it... Yet I wouldn't really want to work on two MARDEK games at once for engine-related reasons (changes to one would mean making the same changes to the other?)... Hmm.


#2 - FIG HUNTER ONLINE

FHO will consist of various Adventures made with the Map Editor thing.
However, I might charge money either to be able to use the Map Editor at all, or for various extra features in the editor. The free version might be able to create Adventures only of a certain length, for example, with only a few tilesets and monsters and things to choose from, whereas the Paid version will have far more choices and capacity and the content it could use would be updated by me regularly.

With FHO though... I don't know whether I should change the battle system around entirely...
I've not worked on it for so long because I don't LIKE the current battle system... I mean, it's good and fine and everything and interestingly tactical with probably far more strategy to it than the standard FF-esque battle system that MARDEK uses, but aesthetically there are several things about it that bother me...
I'm unsure about the idea of Dungeons with 'Rooms' for one thing... partly because it interferes with the GUI. If you stand in the upper left corner (or lower right, I think), you can't see your characters...
I could perhaps fix this by making a solid bar for the GUI at the top, and leaving the bottom part entirely open, like with probably most NES-era games, but that seems unpleasant or something...
Also, all battles would have to have monsters placed manually, and I found this irritating with my own usage of the unfinished editor...
ALSO also, monsters are very restricted in their appearances and animations, as are the player characters. You can't really admire snazzy new armour if your sprite is too small to distinguish details, and there's not a lot of variety that you can make with monsters so small...

It might be better to just go with a standard turn-based RPG that goes into a separate screen, sort of similar to MARDEK but with some differences... Perhaps it could even be like the early Final Fantasies where monsters are static images and your party are sprites?

Anyway, that sort of planning is for another time... I don't want to get too focused on FHO at this point while there are so many other things I need to work on.


#3 - BEAST SIGNER

I'm not sure what aspect of this one I could charge money for.
Perhaps I could have a short intro section which serves as a demo of sorts, and once you finish it, you're asked to pay to continue or quit... or something. So people would get a taste of what the game could be like, and would want to play the rest?
OR I could have some kind of virtual currency, bought using real money, that can be used to buy Signer items, beast items, or, perhaps, just to MERGE. Merging could cost real money to do... Hmm.
That strikes me as very irritating though... So I might just do something along the lines of bonus content? I don't know. I need to plan this one better.


#4 - RAIDER ADVENTURE EDITOR

This is one that appeals to me, but I don't know whether Raider was appealing enough to The People to make this very profitable...
It might replace the sequel I was planning to do for Raider with RPG-like mechanics similar to Raider Zero... That is, it'd HAVE all of those mechanics, but rather than being a stand-alone game with a plot by me, it'd be an Editor which gives players the ability to make their own full levels, with multiple screens, the size of the levels in the released episodes so far...

There are several possibilities that I could perhaps explore...
Rather than playing as Arkus, you could play as a customised character... Probably a human or humanoid at least, with an appearance based on equipped items which could maybe be bought between Adventures with points that you obtained from finishing Adventures?
It could be that you play as a pirate or mercenary or something of the like, who's hired out to do missions and the points you get after each one are your pay...
The points would be determined by formulae, of course, so the longer and more difficult the level, the more points you'd get... rather than people making things like 'walk 2 teh other end of the room 4 100000000000 pts!111', which they WOULD, *often*, if they could.
Obviously, the character you played as could be taken between multiple levels...

Adventures made by people would use resources made by myself, like tilesets, music, enemies, etc (you could use different tilesets for each room though, unlike the single tileset per episode used in the currently available level(s)), and would consider of as many rooms as they liked (max 100, min 1?), with a series of GOALS like in the Adventures of Spore.
There'd be NPCs to talk to and in-level items to pick up, so you could do simple fetch quests or assassination missions or things like that. Obviously there's be limitations from it being a side-scrolling platformer though...

You'd gain levels and have stats and get new weapons and so on, but I don't know whether jumping abilities could be gained because otherwise many levels might be unbeatable by certain people... Hmm.

It's still very much a raw concept, this, but would it be appealing to anyone?
Suggestions?

~

Uh, suggestions in general are welcome.
I'm also very interested to hear peoples' reactions to the idea of having to pay me for my hard work in order to be able to play all that I've made...
125 comments

 

125 Commentson 111 roots

NinjaChinchilla`s Avatar
Rating Orb NinjaChinchilla 15 United States CholericPhlegmatic 22C 16F
7 years ago | (3)
With Flash games, if people had to pay, and all sites made people pay, it could result in a "checkmate" where gamers are willing to pay to play their favorite games, but it could also result in "check" where all gamers aren't willing to pay. It is more likely as you said that there would be a mixture of people willing or not willing to pay. If I had a Pay-Pal account, I'd be willing to pay to play.
cerealguy500`s Avatar
Rating Orb cerealguy500 13 United States PhlegmaticSanguine 18C 18F
7 years ago | (0)
I WOULD pay, but I have no Paypal account. However, I do have parents with a credit card, and an allowance which I can easily exchange with my parents for Paypal payments. So I would pay for bonus content all the way.
creater0822`s Avatar
Rating Orb creater0822 14 Netherlands MelancholicPhlegmatic 37C 1F
8 years ago | (0)
Hmm.
Still a little bit to complete marek 3.
And than fighunter online.
hlbeta`s Avatar
Rating Orb hlbeta 22 United States CholericMelancholic 144C 131F
8 years ago | (0)
No. Bad. Also wrong. I take a short vacation and return to this cancer and madness. The day that p2p content enters into your games will definitely be the day that people stop playing them, especially if you implement something like the ideas you put forth for Beast Signer. You'd end up with some kind of shambling monstrosity that resembles those filthy Swords and Sandals "games" on Kongregate, giving the player just enough content to really piss them off when you suddenly tell them you want their money before they can play the rest. This sort of thing would also come as a tremendous blow to your fanbase (us). We try to support you through your cheery little maniac-depressive cycles and in exchange we are told that the projects we have helped to nurture and protected from the cold winds of doubt are in no way our own any more. Yes, you have complete ownership of the games but as a fan, player and frequent contributor to the gameplay conceptualization threads it hurts me I may be denied the games I have so long awaited and assisted in the development of because I have not the means to pay for them.

On a less outraged note, it would be depressingly easy for someone who was so inclined to steal the games and/or content from you. By making the material pay-to-play exclusive you alienate the vast majority of your fanbase in a manner that can also be easily circumvented. I know how to manipulate a page's source code to rip protected material off of a page and it is not at all hard. A better approach would probably be to continue receiving minuscule ad revenues from each player's visit but make good enough stuff that people will be willing to send actual donations your way. Mr. Tarn Adams, the lead (only) programmer of the Dwarf Fortress project and his brother, Mr. Zach Adams have raked in approximately $2,500+ (US) each month for the last six months from such a business model, based almost entirely on a single Alpha-grade game that is freely available and doesn't actually generate any ad revenue. It probably wouldn't be enough to live on, but a pay-to-play model would likely produce even less with the added bonus of shedding player base like an object colliding with Earth's atmosphere.

Additionally, you produce material too infrequently to rely upon you flash games as a source of income in the first place. The only thing you have produced and published in the time since I have joined this forum is the first episode of Raider, which really fails to stand out form its platformer brethren and plays like the severed stump of a game. Nobody in my social circle even remembers the Mardek games on those rare occasions that I bring them up in conversation. You really need to finish a few good games in the next year or so before you can even consider such a gambit.

I still love you, but sometimes this sort of thing need to be said to keep you from being really, really stupid.

On a nicer note, most of what enters Kong and similar sites really is in the absolute crap to barely mediocre range. With a major game like Mardek 3 you would have a near-certain prospect of winning the Game of the Week competition and a not unreasonable chance of claiming the Game of the Month as well, netting you $1,750 before taxes and revitalizing interest in you work. Additionally, the new layout is rather snazzy, good job there.
Pseudolonewolf`s Avatar
Rating Orb A β Pseudolonewolf 23 United Kingdom MelancholicPhlegmatic 2257C 559F
8 years ago | (0)
Unfortunately, there are good reasons why it would be far more profitable for me to charge money for my hard work, and it's just not fair at all for me to expect to give everything away for free since it's not like everyone else in the world works for free or anything.
I will lose some fans and I know this, but honestly, I'd rather have the money to survive than fans. I've been reading quite a bit about Flash game money earning, and it seems I'm taking the 'stupid approach' at the moment by relying on advert revenue and donations rather than premium content.

A game like Dwarf Fortress attracts a specific kind of crowd who are capable of and likely to actually give donations. I'd bet that the age range of players is between 20 and 40 or something, who like the very, VERY 'retro' feel of it, and would like to support it just because of a sort of reminiscence factor and because the game is more based on your own imagination and intelligence rather than insipidity and snazziness.
My visitors though are mostly around the age of about 13-20, annoyingly enough, which means that they only ever say things like 'I'd LIKE to donate but I can't!'
There's nothing to compel them to, so they don't.

I know that their inability to donate would also mean that many of them would also be unable to pay for extra content, but the *necessity* of having to pay for that content and the actual tangible reward they'd get for their, uh, generosity would encourage many, many more of them to give up their or their parents' money in some way.
It will be many, many times more profitable than what I'm doing now, EVEN IF I lose a huge chunk of players in the process, and it's the way that Flash games seem to be going.
In another comment, I think I gave figures like... I could earn $100 in a month for advert revenue and donations, but if I charged $10 for premium content for one game, that'd take just TEN PEOPLE to get me just as much money, and I could get dozens of customers in a day if my games eventually got enough reputation and traffic (which seems possible with advertising; people with worse games have done it).

I would very much prefer to give away all my stuff for free, but I just can't do that... I need to survive, and due to various mental faults, I don't think I could cope with a 'proper job' and I'm trying to avoid it as best I can. I'm not exactly doing a brilliant job of this alternative, but I'm, uh, getting there, uh, very gradually...
I know that I have to work a lot better to make a proper go of it, but if I was doing it for money DIRECTLY with paying customers and such, then it would be more like a job and I'd treat it as such, rather than just some sort of quasi-side-hobby-thing that it is now. Any money I get for games now is so far off that it's just so easy to procrastinate, but if I were getting payments and demands every day, it'd be far, far easier to motivate myself.

Anyway, I am sorry that things in life are not free. I wish I could get food and shelter for free, but alas, I can't. I have to pay. And people will have to pay for my games too for the same reason.
There'll still be free stuff I'll make - all of the eight MARDEK chapters will never be anything other than free - it's just that EXTRA content will be there for people to buy to help support me.
I do need to find a balance between giving free players a decent experience yet making them WANT to buy the premium stuff, though.

I'm certainly not going to NOT try to see if I can make good money from doing what I love just because some people won't or can't pay... That's sort of selfish on their part, I think, to expect me to make these games for them for free where I get nothing useful-in-the-real-world in return from them...
I don't think it's selfish of me though to say "uh, can you please give me something in return for the hard work I put into bringing you this?"
Hmm.

If you made something that many people really seemed to like and you badly needed money, wouldn't you try to form a link there?

Also, it could be that either I make games and charge money for them, making it a full-time job, or I stop making games entirely and do something else...
hlbeta`s Avatar
Rating Orb hlbeta 22 United States CholericMelancholic 144C 131F
8 years ago | (0)
**This post contains reference to materials from the response chain immediately below it, please read it before considering this post**
I would like to thank SilverWind for keeping this discussion going and building upon my arguments. One of the most critical elements you (Pseudo) seem to have missed is that as soon as you start charging your players directly you have become a business. People who are paying for the privilege of playing your games will have heightened expectations for those games. Effectively, in your attempts to avoid conventional employment you would end up in a state that very closely resembles conventional employment. The key expectation being that new content should be produced with some regularity as well as being of exceptional quality. While I will not dispute the quality of your games, your timeliness is another matter entirely. This is not a change that you could realistically reverse either, you gamble your entire future on this move if you should choose to make it.

Another important issue is that once you start to implement pay-to-play content your playerbase will shrink dramatically, I believe that a tiny fraction of one percent is not an unrealistic element in this case. From making a quick check and rough estimates based on the RuneScape server counts I can tell you that there are about as many p2p users online as f2p users. That rate sounds good, but a review of current demographics for the game indicate that approximately one out of every six "active" accounts, active status indicating a login in the previous 30 days. That also doesn't seem so bad until you run across the fact that a little less than half of the f2p accounts active in any given month are less than 30 days old (approx. 6 million out of 15 million), indicating a massive turnover rate among the game's free players while the three million p2p accounts remain a relatively steady figure over the last six or so years of its existence, averaging four years of age at the last community poll. This all comes to something in the region of approximately one in every ten million players paying for the advanced features of the game. Those are the numbers for what is arguably the most popular free-to-play game to be found on the internet today, which you will not be making. Because of this, I feel entirely confident in my statement that only a minute fraction (hundredths or possibly even thousandths of a percent at best) of your potential players would be willing and able to pay actual money for your games. Out of all the accounts listed in the members page you would have somewhere between one-fifteenth and one-fourteenth of a paying customer if we assume that one hundredth of a percent of your customers will pay for their games. If we take the total plays at this time for every game you have published to Kongregate and assume (falsely) that each and every play came from a unique individual at at same rate of .01% then you would have a tiny bit less than 127 paying customers, on average. At five dollars per paying customer (they aren't likely to spend any more than that unless your game is orgasmically good and well advertised) you have just made $635 and pissed off hundreds of thousands of potential fans. I am so very proud of you.

The other problem that we run into is that you are relatively unknown at this point, it has been years (plural) since the release of Mardek Ch.2 and Raider was, quite frankly, a flop. There is currently no good reason for new players and potential customers to come to the site. For that you would need advertising, either in the form of a few good games in close proximity or literal paid advertisements. I do not believe you to be capable of the former while the latter is a risky prospect and unlikely to pay off.

This really seems to be the result of you getting ahold of a shiny new idea without justly considering its consequences. I feel it my obligation as a supporter of your cause to drag this idea through the mud as best I can in order to prevent you from very badly hurting yourself with it. Keep in mind that my sole purpose in writing this is to try to keep you from self-destructing in an attempt to turn a grater profit from your work. As I said before, if this gambit should fail (and I honestly think that it will) you won't be able to recover from the mass exodus of fans it will inevitably trigger. If you lose here, you lose everything.

We have now come to the part where I tell you to stop considering the notion of playing the commercial equivalent of Russian roulette and encourage you to accept the fact that you are more likely to make a living off of a "free" game than you will ever make with a pay-to-play or partially pay-to play-game. Please do so.
1 Reply
Wiz Zumwalt`s Avatar
Rating Orb Wiz Zumwalt 32 Hungary SanguineMelancholic 247C 40F
8 years ago | (0)
The Lost Garden article you linked to is rather good. "Players, in aggregate, tend to forgive great games, even if they need to pay for them" - I couldn't agree more. Also, the fact that a Flash developer makes $0.0028 per user is nothing short of shocking, actually. I'd have expected something around $0.1 at the very least - never realising that this would mean roughly $100K for a game like Raider: Episode 1 (instead of roughly $1K if I'm guessing right).

However... I think the main reason behind this is not the large number of middlemen between you and your end user (nor that they overcharge) but simply the fact that the whole revenue is going through ads, and what are the chances of a simpler but working payment system based on ads?

Making your players pay for the content directly is absolutely viable - in theory. I think most players would be willing to pay $0.15 per game, or even $1 for something like Mardek 2, and with millions of players, you don't need to charge any more. (A higher charge than $1 would probably hurt your income though, because you'd start to lose huge numbers of paying customers. That's talking about the base charge of just playing though, not the "extras" intended for a smaller audience in the first place.) I think the Achilles' heel of this is the complexity of paying.

As an example: if I play any of your games on Kongregate or Newgrounds or wherever, you'll get the usual $0.000325 (essentially paid to you by the portal owner without anything to match it against, because I've got perfectly working ways of eliminating ads from web pages... but that's beside the point). Which is a very small amount, but I didn't have to do anything to get you that amount of money. Whereas to pay you $0.15 directly, I'd need to:
- Make a PayPal account or something similar
- Transfer some real money into it
- Click on some icons, buttons, whatever to actually instruct PayPal to give you the money (then a few more to get back to the game I was about to play).

Strange and selfish as it may sound, this is what I (and I guess most other players) are unwilling to do.
First off, PayPal and other online payment services are so much in the stone age that even 2 years ago, you couldn't use them from Hungary (a member of the EU since 2004, for crying out loud!) But even if they weren't - interrupting the "flow" of just playing some games with even a few clicks is unacceptable because it beats the very reason why I'm playing games in the first place. I would probably do it nevertheless for your games, if I already had some account with which it only took a few clicks to pay, because I like them a lot more than the average Flash game. But the same is only going to hold for a few hundred players out of the millions in total - and you're back to the ridiculously low overall figures where we started off.

It's not that I want Flash games for free; actually, the time I spent testing Raider in its various forms (not counting the time I just played it out of enjoyment) would have cost me somewhere around 400 if I had had to take time off my job to do it. But for the average Flash game out there, I'd never click even once to pay any amount, however insignificant, before I have had an opportunity to decide how much I like it.

The only way of capturing a decent amount of revenue from the players themselves would be a payment system that makes paying for the game completely automatic, but in any case, simple enough not to require navigating away from the game page. If Kongregate worked so that it would charge you $0.01 automatically when you started playing a game, and another $0.10 if you returned to it at least twice, or clicked a button saying "I like this game!", I think 90% of the current users would be just fine with that.

The sad reality is that with the current complexity of online payment systems, you can't make things this simple. Though feel free to prove me wrong there and set up your own Flash games portal which works this way - you'd probably have all the good Flash developers exclusively on your site within less than a year, plus loads of other developers retraining themselves to Flash and creating great games, myself probably included. Just make sure you give me 1% or something for the idea. :)

I haven't said much about charging for extras, but that's because I think the money you can get from that is hardly worth the effort it takes to make it all possible in the first place. Again, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.
Pseudolonewolf`s Avatar
Rating Orb A β Pseudolonewolf 23 United Kingdom MelancholicPhlegmatic 2257C 559F
8 years ago | (0)
Yes, this is the main problem, and why charging low prices wouldn't work. I mean, though many people would be more WILLING to pay lower prices like $1 rather than $5 or $10 or $15, the people who can pay *at all* - either because they have PayPal or a credit card or can be bothered going through the whole tedious process, which I'm unlikely to do in any circumstances myself - would still be roughly the same.
So say 20% of people CAN pay, and 5% of them WOULD pay (these numbers are utter guesses, of course, based on next to nothing), and if I charge $1, all of those 5% would pay, and if I charge $5, only 2% would pay, and only 1% would pay $10. It still works out much better to charge higher, just because so few people CAN buy at all.

I've thought for ages that with the internet as it is, we should REALLY be developing things like entirely virtual currency (it's already gone from gold to bits of paper; doing away with the paper and making them numbers on a computer exclusively seems inevitable), with secure, solid, but SIMPLE systems that basically allow anyone of any age to have money, like in 'real life', and to simply give it, like dropping coins into a donation box, in a single click. This would get people like me TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars more, easily, because I can imagine a young boy impressed with my game gratefully sparing a donation of a dollar or so, or even a few pennies, if it just meant the virtual equivalent of casually dropping it in a hat.

I don't know if there's any way I possibly COULD make paying extremely simple, but I really am going to try my hardest to make it as streamlined as possible, since I know for every extra click involved, I'd lose a hefty percentage of potential buyers.
SilverWind`s Avatar
Rating Orb SilverWind 21 Afghanistan MelancholicCholeric 314C 117F
8 years ago | (0)
Read Hlbeta's comment very carefully. It is true in every aspect. If you charge for just about anything, it will kill you. There are games that are FAR more developed than yours that are updated constantly, and as soon as you charge money, you enter their realm. Your games are great, but you are only one man. You would lose against them.

Release new games. Grow your fan base. Eventually, perhaps, you can start a company, and then you can charge. But not yet. It is too soon. It would kill you.

I want the best for you, I really do. I hope that you take this advice.
1 Reply
weirdguy`s Avatar
Rating Orb weirdguy 20 Madagascar MelancholicPhlegmatic 40C 1F
8 years ago | (0)
Since you're allowing it to be somewhat multiplayer, people seem to adore being able to show off their gear regardless of how statistically pointless clothing is to the game mechanics.
weirdguy`s Avatar
Rating Orb weirdguy 20 Madagascar MelancholicPhlegmatic 40C 1F
8 years ago | (0)
Heh.....

Did you remember that you put a clothing system in Beast Signer?

Why not sell outfits?
Yanti`s Avatar
Rating Orb Yanti 12 United States MelancholicPhlegmatic 108C 53F
8 years ago | (0)
MARDEK Bonus Chapters I'd pay $10 apiece for... and I still LOVE everything Raider.
The others, though... meh.
ShadowKou`s Avatar
Rating Orb ShadowKou 17 United States PhlegmaticSanguine 19C 1F
8 years ago | (0)
..........please no.
SavageWolf`s Avatar
Rating Orb β SavageWolf 17 United Kingdom CholericMelancholic 533C 105F
8 years ago | (0)
Alternative?
ShadowKou`s Avatar
Rating Orb ShadowKou 17 United States PhlegmaticSanguine 19C 1F
8 years ago | (0)
...........i forget what.
Hugna`s Avatar
Rating Orb Hugna 21 United States MelancholicCholeric 7C 4F
8 years ago | (0)
The pay thing's gonna happen one way or another, i guess. Personally, if there was a way to make it where they can choose to pay, or gain some way to get it for free, that'd be okay.

I know how hard it is to normally get money for making games. I've made 3 gigs of unfinished games, and even though i've never wanted to make em for payments, i've actually made em for fun, one of which i may have to restart.

Personally, i wouldn't be paying to play a flash game, even if i had a job. When i saw the talk with FHO, i kinda got sad. Hopefully you don't go too high. Maybe when i get a gift card, i could use it to buy the offered stuff. Too bad it can only come in $25, and $50.

But the bonus chapters being payed, even if you make it buyable, they'll probably share it everywhere and end up making you lose money. Perhaps i'd set Mardek on one of my sites so people would try out your games. But hopefully the buy thing doesn't backfire, like... someone gets money off of advertising and you don't get a cent.

About Fig Hunter Online, i'm not sure. Maybe you could instead make a basic template of tiles, like trees, grass, and stuff, maybe template of tiles for a dungeon, town, and a forest, while the rest can be bought seperately, like a volcano tileset, space tileset, underwater tileset, and so on. You know, let people check what they wanna buy, and then they can pay for it.

As for Beast Signer, maybe you could make it where theres a limited amount of things you can get without paying, and if you want more, you pay and get it all.

Now the Raider Creator thing, it sounds real good. I'd love to make my own stuff, and share it.

The points thing sounds nice, maybe you could make points global for your games, and make some use for the points. Personally i like collecting points. I've been trying to get all of my achievements off of Fallout 3 on my XBox Live account.

I read a comment about virtual money. That does sound good. People could pay money for virtual money to add stuff onto their site accounts so they can have access to certain stuff on your games. Hey, maybe you could allow people to convert 100 points into 1 uhh... hmm... Fig Cash?

However you go with the cash thing, hopefully it won't go too far.
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